Two Taps and Friends
Two Taps and Friends is a long-form conversation hosted by Defense and Litigation Attorney/Father/Husband Daniel Rosenberg with friends and guests from all walks of life. Everyday people talking everyday issues.
Two Taps and Friends
Olivia R. | Inside the mind of a serial killer #77
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In this intimate father-daughter conversation, criminal defense attorney Daniel Rosenberg sits down with his daughter Olivia to explore the chilling world of serial killers through the lens of real legal experience. They discuss landmark cases like the Zodiac Killer, Ted Bundy, John Wayne Gacy, and others, while examining how mental health, childhood trauma, evolving law enforcement tools, and DNA technology have transformed the pursuit of justice.
Beyond the crimes, this episode reveals the human side: the unpredictability of clients with severe mental illness, the evolution of criminal profiling, school safety protocols, and why understanding these minds matters—not to sensationalize, but to foster awareness and prevention. Thoughtful, honest, and grounded in real-world insight, it’s a conversation that bridges generational curiosity with professional wisdom. Perfect for true crime enthusiasts seeking depth over shock.
⏰ Timestamps ⏰
00:00:00 👋 Intro
1:09 🗣️ Welcome & Father-Daughter Dynamic
2:09 ⚖️ The Most Shocking Cases in Criminal Defense
3:34 🧠 Mental Health in the Justice System
7:29 🚨 Personal Safety Risks for Defense Attorneys
10:29 🔎 Wrongful Convictions & the Innocence Project
13:16 📜 The Zodiac Killer: Then vs. Now
16:51 ⛓️ Ted Bundy’s Charm, Escapes & Downfall
20:15 🌉 Green River Killer & Jurisdictional Challenges
21:14 🕵️ Ed Gein, Jeffrey Dahmer & Criminal Profiling Origins
23:28 😈 Richard Ramirez (Night Stalker) & Victim Selection Patterns
25:22 👥 The Hidden Traits of High-Risk Clients
27:10 🏫 School Safety, Lockdowns & Generational Fears
32:15 🧬 Childhood Trauma as a Common Thread
38:28 🌑 Why True Crime Fascinates Us
44:22 👋 Closing Thoughts & Reflections
Which serial killer case discussed surprised you the most in terms of how law enforcement (or lack of it) allowed them to operate for so long?
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These serial killers, there's there's a form of mental health going on there. Those are by far the most shocking, the ones that stick with you, and the ones you don't forget, and and coincidentally the most scary. I remember one time I went in and there was a guy howling like a wolf in the corner of the cell. That was kind of scary. And the deputies were like, Yeah, you're not going in with him, Danny. There are definitely serial killers out there.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I know. I just feel like it was probably more common back then for them not to get caught as fast. The zodiac killer for most people were trying to figure out what all these puzzles and like codes were saying, and I think that that bought him a lot of time. Ted Bundy was not careful.
SPEAKER_02Ted Bundy didn't care. First of all, he escaped jail twice.
SPEAKER_00Twice.
SPEAKER_02That doesn't happen now.
SPEAKER_00Just so you know, like it's very He had a girlfriend through most of this time she it was happening, and she had no idea what was going on.
SPEAKER_02The thing with these guys that's scary is that when you meet them, a lot of them, you would never know. They're usually pretty smart. They're very smart, they can be charming. My favorite all-time guest, special guest, still numero uno type with her brother, Olivia Rosenberg. Welcome back to the show.
SPEAKER_01Welcome to two taps and friends. Grab your favorite drink.
SPEAKER_02Welcome back to Two Taps and Friends. I'm the host of the show, Danny Rosenberg. Today I have my favorite all-time guest, special guest, still numero uno tie with her brother, Olivia Rosenberg. Welcome back to the show.
SPEAKER_00Thank you for having me again. I'm excited to be here.
SPEAKER_02Awesome. This is my daughter, as a lot of you viewers and listeners probably know by now. She's done a couple of great episodes. We did a whole Stranger Thing recap and we went through all the uh all the uh the shows and the episodes, and it was really cool. Um, I brought Olivia on today because now Olivia has shown an interest recently in true crime, which I don't know if that's disturbing or not, but uh she recently uh asked me to interview me um for like a project she was doing for school as a criminal defense attorney. She had a uh a lot of questions to ask me about some true crime people. Uh and she's been doing a lot of these um, you know, covering a lot of these serial killers, which is disturbing but also interesting at the same time, right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Tell me what's going on with you here. Do I have to be worried about you?
SPEAKER_00No, I just think it's really interesting.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_00And I just like that whole field. It's like interesting. I did have some questions for you though.
SPEAKER_02Oh, you have questions for me. That's interesting. Okay. So ask me some questions.
SPEAKER_00So since you're like a lawyer, um, what do you think is the most shocking case, most shocking case you've taken?
SPEAKER_02Shocking case I've taken. Um, I think you asked me this the other night too, and there's so many that just blend together, but I don't, and I I have too many shocking cases, but a lot of shocking cases, disturbing cases, shocking cases. I don't know that I can name just one, to be honest with you. So it's really hard for me to like hammer that down to one, to be honest with you. But I literally once a week have a shocking case, you know.
SPEAKER_00So you give me just like one of the but what are you looking for? Shocking, as in what stupidity, shocking as something that just really stuck with you, you know?
SPEAKER_02Well, I think the obviously the murder cases stick with you a lot. Um you know, things involving children stick with you a lot. Um a lot of the stupidity sticks with you a lot because they make for great stories, you know. But I've had some, you know, I had I had shocking cases, I had a shocking case recently with the mental health cases. Whenever you're dealing with people that have mental health, um, which a lot of these people on the board, these serial killers, there's there's a form of mental health going on there. Those are by far the most shocking, the ones that stick with you, and the ones you don't forget, and and coincidentally the most scary.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, have you ever been afraid to speak to one of your clients?
SPEAKER_02I've ever been afraid to speak to one of my clients. Um, no, not afraid, but definitely cautious. You know, I remember when we used to be when I was a public defender, we used to go, you don't have a choice for who you could represent when you were Republican. Well, you don't really have a choice. You just get these files, and a lot of these people had mental health, a lot of them were homeless people, they kind of I remember a couple of times the deputies in the jail would not let me talk to these people alone. You know, I remember one time I went in and there was a guy howling like a wolf in the corner of the cell. That was kind of scary. And the deputies were like, Yeah, you're not going in with him, Danny. You know, we're well I think he was, I don't remember what exactly he was charged with. Assaulting someone, I think he hit a cop. He hit a cop, and the officers were just not letting me in there with him, and he'd assaulted the cops over and over again. And these people get their mental delusions and they're very dangerous. That's why the mental health is I don't know if you know what schizophrenia is, those those kind of things, those are the scariest things because those people are very unpredictable, and uh they think that they're you know doing good sometimes. Like I had one guy who um he was convinced everybody was a devil worshiper and a pedophile and all this scary stuff, and he would just attack people. He just decided that you were a bad guy and attacked, you know.
SPEAKER_00Did he do you think he did it because he thought they were gonna do something to him, so he did it as like self-defense, or do you think he was just trying to like get them out of the world? Because like they were well, both.
SPEAKER_02This one guy that I'm specifically thinking of had both. He he thought that he was defending the world from these people and that these people were trying to kill him, and and and those people get really dangerous because they really believe in what they're saying. So, with me, usually as their lawyer, they look at me as someone that's helping them a lot of times, but at any moment that can change, and at any moment that can get scary, you know.
SPEAKER_00Right. I imagine that prosecution probably has a lot of people like attack them.
SPEAKER_02Well, it doesn't happen as often as yes, I've seen them get attacked in court a lot. It happens in court. I saw one time I've seen people spit at them, I've seen people try to get to them, I've seen someone pull their hairs, I've had to separate people from prosecutors. That's it's it's a scary job too, judges too.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I feel like that you're going against someone that's done all these horrible things. I feel like that's probably really, really scary. Well, even in your case, just talking to these people sometimes, I feel like would be pretty scary.
SPEAKER_02Even in trial, you're just pointing to this person and saying the worst thing, this person's an animal, this person. So yeah, it gets really ugly. I remember we were I can many times that the the defendant or the person, the criminal defendant, has attacked the prosecutor. I could many occasions. I've seen it in trial one time. One time we had to put uh there was a case, it was a attempted murder case, and it was a self-defense argument. Those arguments you have to put your client on the stand to say self-defense, where normally we try to avoid that. And this guy had a temper, and I did not want to put him on the stand in front of a jury. And and the prosecutor, she was a really good prosecutor, still a good great friend of mine right now. She she had a temper, and she could get she would get really heated and get in these people's face when she was cross-examining them. And I remember saying to Larry, you know, Larry, my trial partner, yeah, we cannot put this guy on the stand. We should not put this guy on a stand. It's gonna be a blow up. Not a good combo. So she put him, we put him on the stand, and she got about an inch from his face and was just, and I was objecting, trying to like stop it, but like he ended up lunging out of the chair at her. And we all grabbed him and stopped it.
SPEAKER_00But was she okay?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. She's tough. I'm scared. I was more scared for him, you know. She was a tough cookie, you know. But yeah, we we ended up intervening and stopping it. But he was a dangerous guy, you know. Yeah, so I mean, yeah, you could ask me questions or I could ask questions, whatever you want to do. Do you have any more? Tell me what more you got here.
SPEAKER_00Um play him on me. Do you think you've ever been in like actual danger because of a client? Like, has there ever been anyone out for you or even a client that's like um I've probably been in danger here and there, but did you ever see that movie Lincoln Lawyer?
SPEAKER_02No, that's with Matthew McConaughey. A lot of people were telling me when that came out, like, oh, that's what you do. And that was very Hollywoody, you know. So I remember thinking, like, you're not normally in those kind of situations that much where you're that much in danger. But like, yeah, I'm in danger with a lot of these people sometimes, you know. In the jail, we have a rule, like when you go to now we do a lot of the jail on Zoom where we have it's a lot better. It used to be we had to go into the jail every time.
SPEAKER_00Is it like Hannibal Ector, like you stay 10 feet away from the glass?
SPEAKER_02That's a very rare occasion. Those are really high security people, and usually you're not just going, those are in the federal prisons or in the bigger prisons. But yeah, there's max security guys, they call them. They're wearing red instead of like the other colors in Broward County. They have different colors. They really, when they bring them into court, they'll isolate everybody away from them. Sometimes I've had seen them wearing a helmet, a hockey helmet, like uh, like a hockey-looking helmet.
SPEAKER_00Like um, Jason Vorry's.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, like for so that they can't hit their face or they can't hit their heads. They're like almost like a skate. I've seen a skater helmet, like a ski helmet almost, so like they can't bash their heads. So yeah, those those are uh those are those are more those are more dangerous people. And in the jail, we had this like rule, like I was taught when I was first starting, like when you sit in the jail, a lot of times they put you in a closed room with one door. And then the jails, every door they're close, they can't have two doors open in the jail. The way it works is if they walk in a room and we walk out of this room, it's like in the one movie.
SPEAKER_00Do you remember that one movie? Like the others, like if they open a door, they have to they can't have two doors open at once.
SPEAKER_02That's how it is in the jails. Exactly in the jails. So it's a buzz thing. They buzz the door open. So if you open one, while that's open, that next door can't open. So they'll close this door and then you're opening this door. So when you're in, you're in. So we would leave it cracked, and we would always they would always train me, make sure that you're sitting with your back to the door so at any moment you could run out the back door, you know. But it's not, and I had one person threatened to come to the house before. Um, but you know, we have good security at our house, and uh it doesn't happen very often, thank God. You know, but I'm very strict with our gate people, you know. The gate people, I tell them what we do, and I'm like, listen, do not let people in here. I don't care if they say Uber or Amazon or whatever, I need to get clearance, you know.
SPEAKER_00Right. Do these things usually happen like when they threaten you? Do they usually happen because they're mad at you or because like mental like illnesses and stuff?
SPEAKER_02Um usually mental illness to threaten guys. The people that are mad, those are that doesn't I mean that happens, but those people are just that's not really the thing. The mental health is the ones that usually you have to be careful because they're unpredictable, you know. And that that doesn't happen that often, but it it does happen, you know.
SPEAKER_00Have you ever had a case where there were like other suspects that you weren't expecting, but they were proven guilty?
SPEAKER_01Other suspects that I didn't expect and they were proven guilty.
SPEAKER_02Um, yes. You mean wait a minute, you mean where my client was proven guilty, but there was other suspects or someone else got proved.
SPEAKER_00You had a client and then there were other suspects other than your client, and one of the other ones got proven guilty, but you weren't expecting.
SPEAKER_02I don't know that I can remember that, but I know there's been plenty of cases where our clients accused and these other people were were guilty. We had to like talk about them a lot, and that happens a lot where there's witnesses that aren't involved in the case, and all of a sudden you find out about another witness, and then that person, they go after that person, but I I don't can't remember whether actually they got convicted, you know. But it does happen.
SPEAKER_00Have you ever had someone that got convicted, but you still think they're innocent?
SPEAKER_02Um got convicted, but I think it's innocent. Thank goodness. I I don't think so. Not many of them, but it does happen. There's this thing called the Innocence Project. There's a it used to happen a lot more um before DNA and all that. A lot of people were getting um, I don't know if you know what circumstantial evidence is. You know what that is? So not direct evidence without blood or without fingerprints, it's circumstantial evidence where they're it's basically at the right time, right? And it's evidence, but it but you know, so people were getting convicted, and now they're going back. The innocent when DNA got so good, the Innocence Project came out. They're they're a fantastic organization. You can look them up, your listeners and viewers, you we will tag them at the bottom. But the Innocence Project, they go and they get lawyers that volunteer and they go and they start doing DNA testings on these people that are sentenced to 30 years and 40 years, and plenty of those people are wrongfully convicted. But I thank goodness can't think of many. Now, I I've had people that got convicted and got very harsh sentences where I had the opportunity to get them less of a sentence on crimes that aren't as serious, and that's regretful. You know, when uh you try to advise your people, your clients to do something they don't listen, can backfire on them, you know.
SPEAKER_00Have you ever had someone that's been put on death row?
SPEAKER_02Have I had no well yes, yes, eventually, yes, yes, but not for specific. I can't really talk about the details of that case, but um yes, and uh I've had plenty of murder cases and uh and um a lot of mental health, and the mental health people generally don't get put on death row, which stems to some of these guys you're seeing up here. You had like you've been like watching a lot of like the serial killer documentaries, right? You had some questions about that, right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, also what you said before about the DNA, I think that's probably why so many of these people didn't get caught for so long, because most of these killers weren't that all that recent, like 60s, 70s, I think some were like 50s, some were way before. They didn't have that good link.
SPEAKER_02Well, we can go through some if you want, or you you want to go through some because we have a couple lined up, but I don't but so what I will say though is that um not to scare you, but these for the listeners of viewers, there's definitely serial killers out there.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I know. I just feel like it was probably more common back then for them not to get caught as fast.
SPEAKER_02I think it was harder to catch them back then for sure, right? Because nowadays there's surveillance, there's online, there's like we could take we'll go through some of these people. Like if you want to start, let's let's let's talk about the zodiac killer for a minute, right? That's all over the place, right?
SPEAKER_00If that was today, they I think they would have gotten caught so fast.
SPEAKER_02Listen to viewers, Zodiac Killer was in the uh I believe it was in the 60s and 70s. Uh this was a killer. I most people have heard about the Zodiac Killer, but he was a killer that he was, you know, he was uh executing young couples. I'm just shooting them, and he was sending like codes and and and uh what do they call it? He would send ciphers and cryptograms. Right, he was sending ciphers and cryptograms, right? Go ahead and tell them.
SPEAKER_00There were people they would publish them because he would threaten in his letters that if they didn't publish these things, like if they didn't print them, he was gonna go kill more people. Sometimes he would like tease his next victims, even if it wasn't true. But everybody all over the world was trying to I don't know about all over the world, but most people were trying to figure out what all these puzzles and like codes were saying. And I think that that bought him a lot of time. Because I think today somebody could have just looked it up and gotten it right away like that.
SPEAKER_02Right. And then also, I mean, he's writing to a newspaper that's a lot easier. He could protect his fingerprints and all that. But nowadays You just post it. They send it from somewhere, they'll get your IP address. This guy was pulling up in a vehicle, he was using his vehicle, and he was any Did they not get the license plate? They it was always people couldn't get it. It was at night, it was dark, they got a partial tag, but now there's street cameras everywhere, there's recordings, there's cameras, so it'd be very hard. So I think the the serial killers are in a different way now where these guys this this guy got away with it, and he actually never got caught. Zodiac never got caught.
SPEAKER_00We still don't know exactly who it is, but there is like a prime.
SPEAKER_02The standing theory is that this Arthur Lee Allen is is the guy most respected. And uh I think that they said that um because there was a lot of circumstantial evidence they found with him.
SPEAKER_00I mean, it like But he was never convicted, like they never proved it.
SPEAKER_02They never proved there's a great documentary for listening viewers out on Netflix right now where they actually go through and they put him in each of the killing places. They have I guess he had like a stepfamily that was the kids testify to like the fact that he they were always around in these areas. Yeah, they were moving around and as they moved around, that's when all the murders happened, which is like and even like the DNA for like I mean, even like the bullet casings and all that is so hard right now to for for it's trackable, it's much more trackable, you know? And I mean, a lot of these these biggest names were from the 60s and 70s. I mean, let's go to another another big one, for example.
SPEAKER_00Another thing with the zodiac, like there was one time he was in a taxi and he just shot the driver in the head, like right there, and people saw him on the street, like moving the body, cleaning up the car. Right. There was like a some teenage girls that they saw him on the street cleaning up the car, like scrubbing the windows and everything, because there was all the blood. Right. So he was literally seen, like it's not like no one saw him ever.
SPEAKER_02So I think that today he would just so I agree, and that's what I'm saying. Like, it's those kind of things got and he was not very smooth, exactly. Like he would go and do it himself, he was doing it in broad daylight. A lot of these, I mean, speaking of like not very smooth in broad daylight, Ted Bundy.
SPEAKER_00Ted Bundy was not careful.
SPEAKER_02Ted Bundy didn't care. I mean, I don't think he cared. I mean, he was but again, you know, he was executed in Florida.
SPEAKER_00Oh, yeah, Florida.
SPEAKER_02He tried a case in Miami courtroom. I go in the same courtroom where he was representing himself. He represented himself, he's very smart. He went to law school. Did you know that?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, he was a law student when most of these things happened.
SPEAKER_02He went to law school. This guy was a good looking, charming guy. You know, now I don't know if he's good looking, now he's a scary picture of him, but like um he was attacking young girls. Scary stuff. I mean, really it was pretty brutal, brutal, terrible stuff. He actually he escaped, first of all, he escaped jail twice. Twice. That doesn't happen now.
SPEAKER_00Just you know, like it's he had a girlfriend through most of this time she it was happening, she had no idea what was going on. She has like uh I think she wrote a book and there's like a documentary now about like her and like how she didn't know anything of this, but he was just going and doing all this stuff and she didn't know. I think that's pretty crazy and scary to once she after she find found out. I imagine she was like scored for life.
SPEAKER_02I mean, he never even used masks. He he literally not careful.
SPEAKER_00He just people he would say his name when he went up to these victims with broken arm or pretended to be a police officer. He would say, Hi, I'm Ted, could you help me put a bow on like the car?
SPEAKER_02Right. There was one incident where at uh Lake Sammamish, the Samamish, we have family that lives in that, but that lake, uh, for Liz and Viewers, he actually attacked two girls at a lake. He killed him the same day. He went, took one girl, came back, and then took another girl. And uh a full lake.
SPEAKER_00He did these things in public places, he would just snatch girls right out of public places. It's not like he would wait for them to be walking and then take them. It would just everybody was right there, all these people.
SPEAKER_02And this was again in the 70s, so like there's no camera surveillance everywhere. Like how that couldn't happen now, right? Like we have cameras everywhere. Like that would he would have been caught, and he was, you know, it's not like he he probably stood out, he stood out a little bit too. So then he got out of the jail. Let me tell you something. I just told you about the jail system, how they don't even open two doors at the same time. Yeah. This guy, in one he was he he was in court.
SPEAKER_00They were trying and he jumped out of a second story window.
SPEAKER_02Jumped out of a second story window, ran into the mountains. I mean, it's just this I don't know. And then the second time he broke out was one of the most horrific things. It was around Florida. He went to Florida State and he attacked some priority girls. Something brutal. I don't know that that could happen. I mean, I mean, if it would, it would be a rampage thing that somebody did, but they would get caught. They would get caught, it wouldn't go.
SPEAKER_00Eventually, he did get caught, he put he was put in the electric chair.
SPEAKER_02Sure.
SPEAKER_00So it's not it's obviously like solved. We know who he is, we know his name. It's not like the zodiac, but he was pretty clumsy. I don't really think he cared as much that much if he got caught.
SPEAKER_02Another major thing that people don't understand is that the interconnection between law enforcement agencies now. So these guys, some of these people, like there's uh the Greenway Killer. I don't have a picture of him. What was his name? I forgot his name. Uh the Green He was he would attack along a highway in California. Again, a lot of things. Not the railroad, it's a different person. But he would attack along the Green, I don't know, I forget the name of him, but Green River, the Green River Killer. He would attack along a certain route, but then he would go out and he would attack in different areas and jurisdictions. So if when when an attack happened in a different city, that city laun uh police wouldn't communicate with this city's police. So they wouldn't even share information. So some of these, like Ted Bundy would he kill people in like uh California, and then he came to Florida, and they didn't even have a national teletype where you could put a fingerprint and those people could communicate with each other. So law enforcement weren't working together. It you could get away almost, each state was almost its own country. So you were literally getting away with these different areas where now all these all these law enforcements communicate. It's easy. There's a database, it's a lot harder to get away with it, you know. Um, let's see, there are another another one. Let's think of. I mean, a lot of these guys were in the same area, like same uh I mean, same era.
SPEAKER_00I think I think it was Dahmer and Ed Guyne. They were both in Wisconsin. I think Dahmer was in Wisconsin, right?
SPEAKER_02Dahmer again was in the 80s. Dahmer was in the 80s, yeah. He was in Wisconsin.
SPEAKER_00And then Ed Guyne was like the 50s, a lot before.
SPEAKER_02Ed Guyne was in the 50s or 60s, again, very hard. Ed Guine, I mean, a lot of people kind of suspected him.
SPEAKER_00He wasn't even technically a serial killer, he only killed two people, but he would rob graves.
SPEAKER_02He had some severe mental health. The one thing you see is that there's severe mental health schizophrenia. Like one thing the show, I don't know if you've ever watched the show Mindhunters, you're too young, maybe. For it. I wouldn't let you watch it yet when we're talking about this. Um, but um, the Minehunters, actually, the FBI, they were arresting these serial killers in the 70s and 60s, and they were just kind of putting them away and not trying to understand the concept of serial killing wasn't even a thing. They didn't understand people that would just go do it over and over again. So they hired these two agents. One guy specifically went and started studying these people. And in studying those people, they built this whole task force of people that profile. And then you have the criminal mind shows that come out and mine hunters, that's what it's all about. And they would profile and they learned a lot. Actually, from uh Ed Kemper was a guy they learned a lot of yeah. Ed Kemper, if we could pull up Ed Kemper, Dan, this guy, um really scary guy, huge guy, six foot like seven, six foot eight guy. He also would attack he would attack co-ed girls. Like uh he would go to dorms and he would do all this kind of stuff. Um again, mental health issues, but he would literally, he was sloppy, but he literally would go and work. He was friends with a lot of the cops in the town. He would go drink with them and sit in bars and get information and share information. So they all called him Ed. They all were he was friends with all of them. He was a local, and like he ended up confessing himself to all the crimes because he was, but these people have this mental health condition that they they now they are able to profile. Where back then they didn't even understand how to look at these people, how to understand these people, and now they have these profiles, so it's a lot harder. It's a lot harder. Um, and again, he was in the 70s, again, in California. For some reason, California was just uh not a great place to be, not a great place to be in the 70s, you know. And then again, there's more, and we can go through some more of the Richard Ramirez, very scary guy.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, nice stalker.
SPEAKER_02The nice stalker. You you've heard about him, right? Yeah, he was so we talk about profiling, very scary. Um, we were talking about profile, what they would do is they would try to profile. Like I said, you asked me, like, what are the scariest clients? And I told you the mental health. Well, when they profile, and now they are able to kind of determine what kind of a person is like a serial killer. I had uh an expert, Dr. Mike Brandon, who's a forensic expert in this area, had him on, and I was asking him, you know, about serial killers and and and and and you know, what kind of what's their profile? What is the traits that you find in them? And he had a hard time kind of like pinning it down, but they know. Um, they looked for like, you know, a lot of the guys like Ed Kemper, they were going for a specific profile person. Ted Bundy would go after young girls. He really never went after guys. Yeah, and then there's John Wayne Gacy, he would only attack like boys and boys, John Wayne Gacy, the clown murderer, and then you had the Zodiac who was going after couples, right? It was always a but this guy was random. He would just climb into your windows, climb in the windows, attack women, men, brutal, children, didn't care, literally psychotic, thought he was the devil. You see him holding his hand out. He actually got executed, thank goodness, in 2013. Not even that long ago. He got caught by random citizens. The only reason why he got caught is because I guess the picture came in the paper, and he was going back to his old neighborhoods and going around there, and they spotted him, and a bunch of citizens caught him, but they couldn't catch him, and he was super sloppy.
SPEAKER_00That was more recent, too. No, it was I mean, yes, it was in the 80s.
SPEAKER_02More recent than the others, it was in the 80s, but he ended up getting caught. He was really psychotic, and you know, these these these kind these people nowadays are are a lot are gonna be caught a lot quicker, you know, but they're still out there. You know, they're definitely still out there. Not to scare you, but they're definitely still out there. Yeah, but do you have any other questions about the the profession and that? Um yeah, so in in my in our field, we it's hard to like the thing with these guys that's scary is that when you meet them, a lot of them, you would never know. They're usually pretty smart. They're very smart, they can be charming, they have good personalities. It's like cannibal lector. I don't want to say good personalities, but you know, they're not people that you suspect, you know. So um when people say have you ever, if you ever like when you ask me if you ever represented serial killers, I don't know. You know what I mean? You don't know, you don't always know.
SPEAKER_00You don't know who's gonna be like, you don't always know if they actually did it or not.
SPEAKER_02Right, right. So I mean, listen, it it's it's okay. If you want to like what's fascinating about it to you, tell me what you makes making you watch this stuff right now.
SPEAKER_00I don't know. I think it their mind to me is really interesting. Like what goes through their head that makes them do these things. Because it's like no sane person for lack of a better word, no sane person would go and just do these things. And most of them probably don't have much remorse about it either.
SPEAKER_02Well, that's a another trait that they talk about. So remorse has to do with um sociopathic narcissists, they call it um the build the the build the the they are inable of showing the inability to show remorse, lack of remorse. Very hard to spot on somebody unless you're doing a full uh analysis on them. You have to look at they try to look at like backgrounds of people. So in your time, the school shooting is an issue, right? Do you guys think about that? Talk about how that affects your school. I mean, you're going to go in very scary times when it comes to that.
SPEAKER_00So yeah, there was one school, I'm not exactly sure when or where, but there was one school that had a school shooting, and uh it like it really scared, I think like the president of my school, I think it really scared him, and he put in all these new things, like now we have barricades on the doors, thing, all these things that most schools don't have, so that that doesn't happen to us. I'm in a very safe school, but some schools it's really sad. A lot of these things happen a lot more than you would want to think.
SPEAKER_02Right. What is so how does that happen in your school? Do you guys are you guys taught about it? What is is there a name for it? Is there a certain bell that rings? How does that work? Can you tell us? Because nobody but a lot of people don't know you're in the school, you know?
SPEAKER_00Right. I don't know if I'm like, I don't want to get like in trouble for talking about it or something.
SPEAKER_02Okay, you're not gonna get in trouble. So but I don't know. It's like but there's a protocol, there's a protocol that happens, right, if there's a shooter on campus. Is that the way it works?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I mean, I don't think we've ever had like a lot of people.
SPEAKER_02Don't give code words or code names, right? Yeah. But I don't really know how to like so but there's a procedure, basically. They have to teach you guys.
SPEAKER_00They do drills to practice this to make sure that we know what to do if something did happen, God forbid.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, we don't want to give the protocols out to the public and all that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's why I'm like kind of Yeah, I get it.
SPEAKER_02So but that's and that's uh that's scary. And and and the thing is, is that nowadays the you know, access to the guns is pretty easy. A lot of people say it's access to guns, and it and it's a both. It's a combination of the guns and it's a combination of also the mental health, you know. So um do you guys kind of look through are you guys kind of looking at kids and deciding who you think is sketchy or not?
SPEAKER_00Well, the good thing about like private schools is that private most private schools like have uniforms. So if there's someone not in uniform, like if there's someone on a hoodie, oh yeah, my school will like shut down, like they'll put us they'll even if they're wearing if there's anything out of uniform, they shut it down. Well, not exactly, but if there's someone in a hoodie and they're looking kind of suspicious, they'll put the whole school on lockdown.
SPEAKER_02Wow. Wow. Well, we're we're here, we're right next to like Parkland. That was horrible. I remember that day. I remember that was a horrible day, and I saw all the cops flying by. It's a very scary thing. Well, I went we went to public school.
SPEAKER_00I remember there was uh I don't remember exactly when, but a couple years ago, I had a friend, she was older than me, she was in middle school at the time, and she sent into like a group chat a photo of herself. She's like, guys, I'm in lockdown right now. But like she was casual about it. Like I could tell that it happens a lot. I'm not sure where she went, but that was pretty scary to me because it's like she she was with her friends, and like you could tell that it's not the first time they've done this.
SPEAKER_02Right. And I remember in the zodiac, he actually one time the zodiac killer threatened to attack buses.
SPEAKER_00Did you I forget exactly what he said, but it was something really terrible. Like, I'll pick them off like as they come off.
SPEAKER_02Little kiddies coming off the bus or something like that. And then shut down that scared everybody.
SPEAKER_00He didn't actually do it, thank God.
SPEAKER_02But yeah, but the the scare was enough. In public school, we had um we had no way of like knowing. Like you were completely at the mercy, but the time that I went to school, it wasn't a free a Columbine was the first time that that happened, and I was already out of school, and then it just became this like scary trend of things that happened. So and it's a it's a different, different you have to worry about different things, you know, at different times. But you know, the best thing you can do is be observant, is what I tell people, you know.
SPEAKER_00They're much more cautious now. Like if there's a crime that happens like five miles away, the school will go on soft lockdown to make sure that it doesn't come near us.
SPEAKER_02Really?
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So that I mean that's good. That's good to hear. Yeah. In public school, we had uh, I remember when I was younger, we they had to set up metal detectors for the first time because people were bringing weapons into the school. And I went to public, I went to a rough public school.
SPEAKER_00You don't have that.
SPEAKER_02You don't have that, which is good. We worked, you know. That's why I work hard to make sure you're not you don't have that. But that's good that that that I feel like you're in a more safe environment, you know. But yeah, I mean it is and what else do you think is interesting? Is it more are you just scared? Is it scary you and it makes you interest because you're scared? I that's what makes me look at it. I think somewhere deep inside it's so horrifying that I I can't help but like kind of check it out and see what's going on and try to understand it, right?
SPEAKER_00Yes, but I think that going more in depth into it makes it I don't know how to say this because it sounds kind of weird, but like going more in depth makes it a little bit less scary scary, right?
SPEAKER_02Like analyzing.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, obviously it's these horrific things, but it's pretty cool to understand what's going through their mind because it's so like not normal. It's like really interesting to see what they're thinking because that this is not normal. People don't most people wouldn't do this.
SPEAKER_02Right. Well, it's I mean it's it's you're trying to kind of solve an equ a problem or an equation, right? So you want to see like that's what I do when I'm looking at this. Like, there's all of them have some sort of a try. This guy, this is H H Holmes. He was he was like the first one, they say the first one that they recognized. He had like a hotel, they called it Murder Castle. He would literally have dungeons, it's really scary stuff. Don't even, I don't think you would you need to look into all that, but like all these guys or girls, uh uh what's her name? Monster, I forgot her name, Alyssa, I forget her last name. Um there was a she was a woman, first woman serial killer. She was down here. She would just go and pick up hitchhikers or let hitchhikers pick her up. And then uh she was the hitchhiker. She was the hitchhiker, yeah. She got picked up and like and she would she would kill Eileen, Eileen something her last name was. I don't remember. She was in Broward County here, and she actually got executed down here too. But they all have uh the the the the common denominator is childhood trauma. Some sort of childhood trauma, some sort of like uh you know, either it's certain kind of abuse or neglect or all that kind of stuff. Are you finding that? Have you have you noticed that while you're looking into it? What have you found?
SPEAKER_00Have you heard of Ed Guyne's childhood? He had a lot of problems. Yeah. His mom was like, I think his mom hated him, and he Well, they they made the movie Psycho after his mom.
SPEAKER_02That movie is that That wasn't after his mom.
SPEAKER_00That was Alfred Hitchcock.
SPEAKER_02That was after him, I mean, yes.
SPEAKER_00But like he had a very then there's Anthony Perkins. I'm pretty I'm sure they taught him a lot about this stuff, and he probably was never the same after playing that role.
SPEAKER_02Anthony Perkins was the guy that played the psycho, right? Norman Bates.
SPEAKER_00Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_02Right. So what you were saying that he had a crazy relationship with his mom?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, his mom was not great, and I think that really affected him. And I she died, I think, of a stroke, I'm not sure. And he got a he had a lot of problems. He was schizophrenic, he was he had some really morbid interests. Like he would do a lot of World War II stuff. He would look at that stuff and like dead bodies, yeah. Yeah, I think I think in a way he would like fantasize about it and he tried to recreate it. I think.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, no, there's definitely something. Ed Kemper, another one with his mom. They all have mommy issues for sure.
SPEAKER_00You know, and then uh I mean that does a lot for that on impersonation.
SPEAKER_02There's a lot of abuse, and like these things now they're able to spot, you know, you spot certain things with like young young children.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, if you're I was talking about this in my civic class today. We were talking about juvenile law. And like if you're walking alone at night and a police officer sees you, they'll pick you up sometimes. They'll pick you up, take you home, and if they see it's a bad environment, they can just take you, like not like take you, take you, like kidnap you, but they can take you out of your home if they notice it. It's much easier to spot, I feel like.
SPEAKER_02Well, they have this people do much more about it. Well, they have a process now. It's like the Department of Child Services and Elderly Services, I deal with them a lot. And uh it doesn't because they're trying to create safer environments for kids, which is great, and for elder people too. They do it for older people that are getting abused and and right.
SPEAKER_00Like they can make people award of the court, right?
SPEAKER_02Like, well, what they can do is they it's called dependency court. I I've represented people in there plenty of time. So if they if there's an uh an allegation that the child's in an unsafe environment, these this this agency comes in, they do a check, and if they can if they think it's unsafe, the parents are unfit, there's drug use or abuse, whatever it is, they can take the child. Yes, they could take the child and put him in temporary foster care, or they could pick a parent and say, you're uh semi-normal, you have to kick your husband out or whatever, your boyfriend out. And and it goes through this court system with great, we have great judges. We have one great judge, Jose Esquierdo, is a great judge in Broward, he's doing a great job with all of it. There's a bunch of judges that are monitoring and they bring they'll bring everybody in. They'll bring the kid, they'll bring the guardians, they'll bring all these different agencies to make sure that this kid is in a safe environment, you know. And if you can't get your stuff together, and you can't get they give the parents a chance to get back with the kids, but if you're so far gone, then eventually you end up in foster care and all that. So, yes, you you your your kids can get taken away for a bad environment. So, but I don't know that that wasn't there. I think that was there before, but I think now it's just everything's more interconnected and people have.
SPEAKER_00I think now people are more careful about that. Like people notice it more, I think.
SPEAKER_02Well, I think people I think the society is more aware of the effects that can have on society later.
SPEAKER_00So you that was probably a little bit more normal, like back then. No, not like normal, normal, but like I don't know.
SPEAKER_02Well, people used to hit their kids and it was normal. Now hitting your kids is not normal.
SPEAKER_00And they will take you away.
SPEAKER_02They can take you away from that, right? Uh there's there's some discipline that can be, but now hitting a kid is is uh across the board pretty much not an accepted thing, you know what I mean? But there is a a line between abuse and like you know, I don't know if you if you like slapped your kid one time, which I've never done, but if you've done that, that's you're not gonna get your kid taken away, probably if it's an isolated incident.
SPEAKER_00But but then you see these movies, like do you remember Black Foam? The dad would literally beat them with a belt, and you could tell that it was like a normal thing, but I don't think they would have done anything about it back then because it was pretty normal, I think.
SPEAKER_02Right. Oh yeah, back then beating, yeah. I mean, that was Yeah, I was in like I don't know if it's well societies changed, you know, and also there's cultural things too. So some cultures, uh, the way they treat their kids are very different than the culture, than the American culture. Like I've had that happen. I've had represented families that came from other countries where hitting a kid with a belt is still like to them pretty normal. They think it's normal discipline. Where here it's not so normal anymore. Some people do it, but it's not normal. Like we didn't do it. It's not I think they found it's not necessary, but the effects that it has on society later when you have children that are abused or neglected, or then they can come and become school shooters and they become serial killers.
SPEAKER_00And I think I mean that's where most of these things come from.
SPEAKER_02A hundred percent, I agree. That's the thing. So I think that if we're if you're aware of that, and I I think it it it helps it can help, you know. I think people are more aware now, you know. And again, it's it's uh it's a it's a smaller world, it's a bigger world, but a smaller world, you know? So yeah, and is it keeping you up at night? What do you mean? Like this stuff, does it keep you up at night? It's because it gets dark, you know. I don't know how much I like you looking into this stuff too much, you know? But go ahead.
SPEAKER_00I don't know. I just like what I said before, it's just what goes through their mind is really not normal, obviously. And it's pretty interesting to see like their problems and what that can do to them, because that's like pretty crazy.
SPEAKER_02What was the report you had to do for school?
SPEAKER_00Oh, we we're doing digital writing, so we had to do either a podcast, vlog, or an editorial. So I did a podcast because I had already done a vlog and an editorial.
SPEAKER_02Uh huh.
SPEAKER_00And then he like spins a wheel and we pick our topic. So I got true crime stories and I got true crime stories.
SPEAKER_02Okay, good. So it wasn't random.
SPEAKER_00No, no, no, no. Okay, good. I was like, it's perfect because like your criminal defense two podcasts.
SPEAKER_02Right, right. No, yeah, I I think but that's honestly you're not alone because the true crime podcasts tend to do the best right now. They're the biggest.
SPEAKER_00Well, they're addicting.
SPEAKER_02I too. Sometimes I'll listen, and the way if you have a good story storyteller, um it's interesting. They're interesting stories. These documentaries, these Netflix documentaries, like all these people we put up here.
SPEAKER_00But like this is like asking why do people watch scary movies? Because like obviously it's not something that you want to be seeing in real life, so why do people go and watch it in movies? It's a good question.
SPEAKER_02Right. I don't know. Right. Well, they just had one, they had a serial killer they just caught. Did you hear about him in Long Island? I heard I heard it.
SPEAKER_00I don't know what happened.
SPEAKER_02I mean, this guy killed six, seven, eight girls or something. They just caught him. And this was happening now, you know. But I think he was uh going after like I think girls that maybe aren't as quickly to be missed, people that lived on the streets or that were drug addicts that weren't in contact with their family, you know. So they were getting away with stuff like that. But I think you you have to be aware, and like, especially with kids now, you have to be aware there's all kinds of scary things going on, like child trafficking and all this kind of scary stuff.
SPEAKER_00So see, but that's the thing. Like, if you're going after people that this sounds mean, but like aren't necessarily gonna be missed by anyone, it's really different than if you're going after like a public figure, everybody's gonna know right away. And then they're gonna be looking for you.
SPEAKER_02Right, right. It's easier to target people like that. I mean, there's people even in the in in the jails, like that are homeless or drug addicts, and they could just sit in the jail and get lost in the shuffle with a $10 bond. I've seen 20, uh, a $50 bond, then a person can't get out because they're homeless, and he just sit there forever, and finally a judge lets him out because no family's looking for them, you know, they're out on their own.
SPEAKER_00And they're they probably don't have anyone to call them either. Like right.
SPEAKER_02So who knows? I mean, maybe that's where the serial killers are targeting right now, because they're easier, easier targets, you know? Yeah. But yeah, I mean, it's like you just have to be aware. I think everybody's being aware and not fixate on that because the world in in general is a good, good, happy place, you know. There is darkness, but you don't want to focus on that too much.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02But yeah. So I'm glad that you are able to ask questions and investigate, and your mind's working a certain way. Um, but I'm like you. The more I ask questions, the more I learn, the more comfortable I feel. Not comfortable, but the more I I kind of want to see more. Like it takes away the fear aspect of it because you're just And then it's just interesting and you kind of want to go deeper in. Exactly, exactly. Well, the the the goriness and the the tragic is not interesting. That's terrible.
SPEAKER_00But like just I think it's more interesting to learn about the people themselves more than what they actually did.
SPEAKER_02Right. Yeah, so I mean when you're older, you go watch that Maya Mindhunters. Um, that's a very interesting, it's an interesting that those people because when he first this agent started wanting to study their minds, they thought it was crazy. Like, what are you talking to these people for? Like Charles Manson and all these guys. What are you talking about these people to? He's like, Well, if we don't study their minds, we can't prevent it from happening, you know? And it it was very, very interesting how um how it's it's very interesting how they did it. And they the show was great, it was like two seasons though, but they stopped. I don't remember what it was, the actors or something, it was doing really well, so there's a push for that to come back.
SPEAKER_00What I found really interesting, and I know I'm sure this happens sometimes, like for real too, but like in Silence of the Lambs, they were Hannibal Lecter, who was obviously like he would eat people. I mean, that's not good. So he was in he was like locked up and he would help them find Buffalo Bill, which is really interesting to me because he probably had a lot more insight and knowledge about that than anybody else did because like he was basically in that position. Like he probably knew a lot more about what was going on in his mind. Like, I'm pretty sure Ted Bundy helps off some other kinds too, which is exactly what I was gonna say.
SPEAKER_02So that was based partly on the fact that Ted Bundy did do that. Yeah, he would go and he he loved attention, he was a big narcissist, loved attention, was grandstanding in court and trial, and that was his thing. But he did help in a lot of catching serial killers, he would offer help. I don't know how many he helped catch.
SPEAKER_00But I think that most of these people, like most of the serial killers that everybody knows their name, basically just like Ted Bundy, Zodiac. These other ones, obviously, a lot of people know, but not like it's not like common knowledge, you know. So I feel like if they're that like well known, it's probably because they wanted to be. Like Ted Bundy, like you said, was narcissistic, and Zodiac would like publish his things for everybody. Of course, he definitely wanted attention, it seems.
SPEAKER_02And they knew how to catch him. You know what they started doing? They started like misrepresenting or calling him a certain name, or they named him, they would criticize him or somehow, or and it would drive him nuts and it would go off the rage.
SPEAKER_00So I think that if they're this well known, it's probably because they wanted to be.
SPEAKER_02For sure. For sure. Any final thoughts? No. No? Not really. Well, I'm always glad to have you on. It's very interesting. You're very good at this, you're natural. The cameras and the lights don't bother you at all. I don't know if they do, but they don't seem like they bother you at all. But um, if you ever have questions, let me know. If you ever want to look into stuff more, let me know. I have to approve it. But you know, we'll look at it. And thank you so much for coming on. Thank you for having me. It was fun. All right. To all our listeners and viewers, thank you for watching. Two taps and friends. Uh, please like and subscribe to the channel. If you like, subscribe to the channel, we have more outreach. Well, the show's doing wonderful. You guys are great. We want to thank our fans for helping us grow and and get everywhere. And uh, Olivia wants to thank you too for you know for giving us a platform to all of us have our conversation back and forth here. It's a lot of fun to have her on. Um, to all the listeners and viewers, please like and subscribe to the channel. Um, you can find us everywhere. We're on Instagram, YouTube, we're on uh literally everywhere. Our marketing team's amazing, our recording team is amazing. As you can see, we're in our temporary studio that because our team is building up, we're gonna have a bigger and better studio that's coming out. We can't wait to show you guys that. Thank you guys for all watching and listening. We love you all. We'll see you next time. Goodbye.